<andguent> jrm8005: gnome gnome gnome gnome gnome gnome gnome gnome gnome gnome gnome gnome gnome gnome gnome gnome gnome gnome gnome * jrm8005 barfs all over andguent's computer <mycroftiv> id rather use gnome than windows desktop or os x desktop, personally <mycroftiv> but sure its not like its a privilege... <jrm8005> mycroftiv: I carry around a bunch of the plan9 programs ported to windows and linux on a usb drive in case I'm forced to use NT <andguent> mycroftiv: from the user space gnome is controversial...and i understand people arguing for both sides.. but technically it's a big pile of crap <mycroftiv> but the 'desktop metaphor' in general has been embalmed since about 1987 <mycroftiv> andguent: oh god i hate the linux stuff like dbus that gnome is built around worse than anything <mycroftiv> and gconf as the combination of the windows registry with xml is like a nightmare come to life <jrm8005> mycroftiv: yep. and they're trying to wedge everything into it. <andguent> i think glib is reason enough to facepalm <mycroftiv> THIS IS UNIX WE USE TEXT FILES NOT XML THANK YOU GOOD BYE <lejatorn> mycroftiv: it writes kthxbye nowadays ;) <jrm8005> mycroftiv: I bitched about XML in a database class. I should have taken flame-retardent clothing <jrm8005> I did win though.... I asked 2 questions: "who here has written an XML parser (or tried)?" <jrm8005> followed by "and how many of you wanted to stab yourself in the face during or after?" <newsham> why hasnt anyone written a p9 xml parser that produces the DOM as a mountable directory tree? <andguent> XML is awesome because it has angle brackets <mycroftiv> the thing that kills me about xml is that it is the perfect excuse to stuff anything and everything into it, and the fact that it 'seems' to have all this structure makes you think its functional and organized <newsham> 9xml foo.xml /mnt/foo; cat /mnt/foo/agent/price <jrm8005> mycroftiv: without a strict schema, it's total chaos. <jrm8005> newsham: that would be kinda helpful <jrm8005> you could then treat it just like textfiles... <andguent> 9xml foo.xml > /dev/null <mycroftiv> jrm8005: right, i mean xml isnt 'inhernetly' evil, theres not really much to xml itself, its just a formatting convention and a rew rules... <newsham> echo newsham >/mnt/foo/agent/user <jrm8005> mycroftiv: it is a bit hard to parse, especially since it is so lax and chaotic <newsham> cat /mnt/foo/file.xml <chris_osx> jrm8005: its advantage is it works with a lax and chaotic parser. <gualteri_> newsha, there was some talk ago in 9fans: http://9fans.net/archive/2004/02/772 <gualteri_> *newsham <jrm8005> chris_osx: which is a bitch to write <mycroftiv> well, back to plan9 - my venti reports that it has in fact indexed all the clumps it contains, but syncindex is still furiously working away - anyone have a sense what its doing? <jrm8005> it's like doing HTML. Writing a parser for valid HTML is pointless, since there is almost no valid HTML out there. <chris_osx> jrm8005: just keep it primitive enough <jrm8005> chris_osx: then you have to trust people to not write bollocksed-up XML <mycroftiv> im looking at the syncindex0.c code, and in my limited understanding it basically just loops through clumps and make sure to put their score in the index <jrm8005> and use a schema... <chris_osx> jrm8005: indeed, but it is less mind bending than writing a sudoku solver <jrm8005> chris_osx: well, right, it's fine if you can trust users. <jrm8005> but you can't. <mycroftiv> jrm8005: see, this is the point where (crazy as it is) id like to 'start over' with computers - we cant trust the users because nobody ever built systems they can actually understand and control, for the most part <mycroftiv> id like to tear stuff down and start over and this time bring the lusers along <jrm8005> mycroftiv: I know what you mean, but I think you have to draw a line somewhere. <jrm8005> there will always be people who refuse to learn computers, actively or passively, and you won't be able to make things usable for them. <mycroftiv> well, i agree - but we dont put training wheels on motorcycles and require everyone to ride them <jrm8005> mycroftiv: here's an idea that I do'nt think most people have thought of: * astrocub (n=cloud@unaffiliated/ibuffy) has joined #plan9 <newsham> jrm: no, xml is not like htlm in that way. <newsham> almost all xml is validly formatted. * gualteri has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) <jrm8005> multiple UIs that you can "grow" through <newsham> and most xml parsers are strict about what they accept <mycroftiv> jrm8005: not sure what you mean but that sounds interesting, explain? * dexen (n=dexen@82.145.90.90) has joined #plan9 <jrm8005> mycroftiv: well, it's like training wheels, multiple UI paradigms that are all related <mycroftiv> ah i see <mycroftiv> layers, so to speak? <jrm8005> so you can transition from one that holds your hand to one that is less restrictive <dexen> hai * devurandom has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) <jrm8005> mycroftiv: yeah, that would be one way of going about it. <jrm8005> newsham: you still run into the problem of a lack of schema <newsham> what problem? <mycroftiv> jrm8005: im just trying to get a vision - for instance, you could model it on clear plastic 'overlays' that you would layer over the display, each one having more information and control buttons on it, so to speak <jrm8005> you wind up with unstructured data presented in a structured manner. <newsham> i dont need a schema to extract data from a file or add new data to it <newsham> ok, you're arguing the merits about XML. <newsham> I'm not. <newsham> i'm just saying "an xml fs would be useful" <jrm8005> newsham: yeah. I'm saying xml should ... well, die. * devurandom (n=devu@warzone2100/developer/devurandom) has joined #plan9 <dexen> an XML filesystem? what for? <jrm8005> <insert typical S-expr based system would be better, damn it! rant here> <newsham> jrm: what it should do is immaterial. it is here and its not going anywhere. * dexen seconds the call for S-expr <jrm8005> newsham: sure <dexen> newsham: same goes for java. doesn't mean you want to actually use it yourself :p <jrm8005> it's like "all cars should use the same bolt pattern on the wheel" <uriel> newsham: XML must die! <uriel> and go to hell! <jrm8005> oh thank god, uriel's here to help me. <uriel> (blah, hell is too good for xml..) <newsham> [07:53] < newsham> i'm just saying "an xml fs would be useful" <mycroftiv> uriel: good to see you uriel, weve been trashing gnome and xml and lots of fun stuff <dexen> uriel: /dev/null perhaps? <newsham> (and fun to write) <jrm8005> dexen: /dev/null is too humane.
